Joseph Fritzl and Incest
I was filled with morbid fascination as I read the hideous and perverted tale of Joseph Fritzl. For those who are uninitiated, this monster constructed a dungeon for his daughter, raped her for twenty four years and fathered seven children with her. It is kind of unfortunate that in the beautiful land of Austria, that I spent four months in, a crime of such magnitude was committed.
Incest is a pretty universal cultural taboo. The Greeks certainly condemn it, think Oedipus who blinded himself upon knowing that he committed incest with his mother (even though he committed the act unknowingly.) The Romans have laws, incestus iuris civilis, that prohibited their citizens from committing incest. However, the Egyptians, at least for the royal family, commit incest among family members, inbreeding probably for political purpose, as the royal blood flows in the female, so often brothers would take sisters as their wives to become pharaohs.
While there is pretty unanimous that incest in the form of sexual abuse (as is the case of Joseph Fritzl) is morally repugnant, how should society treat incest between two consenting adults? If giving birth to deformed or retarded children is the problem, can incest be accepted with the proviso that consenting adults use contraceptives and don’t give birth?
At the same time, I am curious to know XY and WH’s interpretation of Lot and his tale of incest with his daughters (Genesis 19.) Are there any passages in the Bible that criticize Lot’s daughters’ self-sacrificing gesture (they thought they were the only humans alive after Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed) to intoxicate their father so as to “preserve the seed of [their] father?”
14 Comments:
friend, do you have to ask us for opinion? look up the answer yourself on the internet.
google 'bible on incest' if you need some help. try and find passages and read up on the evolution of the laws.
yeah, i am not well versed in the bible, and it is always good to hear from you, since you believe there are a lot of good moral lessons we can learn from the Bible.
hahaha and do you have to refer to the bible to convince yourself that incest is morally wrong?
don't ask me too much about the bible. i am not any more well-versed as you are...
well, i cannot explain to myself why it is morally wrong for two consenting adults to have incest, esp if they don't have any children?
hahaha go ahead and do it then, and let society explain it for you...
of course i am not going to commit incest and let society explain it. i am just interested in knowing the reasons why it is wrong. clearly your movement towards religion has lowered your intelligence by a few percentage points.
if you cannot recognise the fact that my responses reflect that fact that i do not want to discuss this matter too far, then you are the one who is not intelligent, not me.
if you want to know what the bible says, go and read leviticus 18 and draw your own conclusions. while you are doing that, don't forget to put the passage in context, and use your brain to think why in genesis incest 'seems' to be okay.
I think you have to set yourself away from the discussion and not perceive every discussion to be an attack on your character, values or religious beliefts.
I didn't start off this discussion to be another quarrel again and i don't think i said anything to warrant any insinuation from you to commit incest and let society explain?
Note that your discussions always get personal (e.g. humes girl) Firstly, consider whether you are privy to the information. Secondly, consider whether they are appropriate for the discussion.
no wonder you made that comment about my intelligence. i am just not sensitive enough apparently...
my 'hahaha go ahead and do it then, and let society explain it for you...' comment does not have any derogatory intention, nor am i angry or upset at you for asking these questions, and i do not mean to challenge your character using that. you said that you can't convince yourself that incest is wrong between two consenting adults as long as they do not bear children, so i thought using such an expression can highlight the obvious fact (to me) that some stuff is just hard to explain when it becomes so ingrained in culture, in a humourous yet slightly acrid way. apparently it offended you and i am very sorry about that.
and i am sorry too if i have previously made you feel unconfortable when i commented on your personal life. i promise i won't do it again during these discussions unless you bring it up to me first...
and sorry if my last comment to this post offended you in any case. i will be more careful next time - remind me if i step over the board too much. and i promise i will read what you write with as cool a head as i can, and not assume that you have any hidden agenda (i admit these days i have the tendency to think that, since you told me about that low IQ thing)...
and by the way, like what i have said, i do not wish to talk about the bible / incest thing further because i do not know the bible well enough and i seriously do not know how to explain - leviticus 18 doesn't say why, the only reason would probably be 'dishonoring your father' and it doesn't seem as serious as it sounds. i do not have an answer to that question - it is just wrong to me because it is wrong. hmms it is strange...
that's fine if you don't want to talk further about the topic.
i suppose i know you well enough after all these years that you don't mean any ill-will. so i am fine with that.
in case, you still keep on thinking i set out to provoke you, i have better things to do in my life. i don't get paid to piss you off. Note that, my first post on religion was to "clarify my view on religion." and i believe that "an individual has full liberty to choose his own beliefs." In any case, i never got to part II, on why religion is constructive to society in certain aspects.
the spirit of discussion is to scrutinize everything and have a glimpse of finding out what is the truth. I don't even bother to argue with people who already have "solidified" views.
i guess i should be more careful of the topic i choose the next time. economics seem like a safe bet.
i suppose you have read my blog?
haha since you are a good friend let me be frank with you about how i feel... :P
i don't suppose you are that free. the main reason i feel provoked is because i feel a gross lack of respect, towards me and towards what i believe in, when you are making your arguments. i know i am guilty of that too, that's why i am still reflecting.
you know i am not closed to ideas; although i have decided to follow Christ i do not see the bible as the sole source of life philosophy. WH also has very different ideas compared to me when it comes to certain political and public policy issues - he sticks more closely to the traditional christian doctrines compared to me.
i have discussed more contentious and personal issues with other friends and the discussion in no instant degenerated into a pointless quarrel, even though sometimes the other party can be pretty combative :P
you don't have to respect me as a person of course if you feel that i don't deserve it; i'll just have to swallow that. but i feel that it is fundamental to respect other people's beliefs when you are talking to them, although you might disagree!
i hope that you are not viewing me differently though! anyway, no matter what your stand is, i am not seeing you as someone different from whom i have known for years (hahaha that is who you are anyway!). you have the right to say what you want to say, and based on that i reserve the right to say what i want to say as well :P
ok first off, let me just say that these threads that you fellows have been posting have been entertaining to say the least.
Gentlemen, please cool down. It serves no purpose to get upset with one another (if anyone is at all). As CS says, "the spirit of discussion is to scrutinize everything ". So, one should keep all forms of attack down to a minimum. It is important, as CS says to "set yourself away from the discussion" to remain as objective as possible, thereby retaining credibility in your arguments.
CS:
Firstly, I must say that you dont practice what you preach. You say not to perceive "every discussion to be an attack on your character, values or religious beliefts". Well to be honest, this is nigh impossible given the method with which you phrase your comments. Just to be clear, a statement such as "clearly your movement towards religion has lowered your intelligence by a few percentage points" is obviously a personal attack which is neither warranted nor true. Even if you were offended by XY's comments, I see no justification for you to say such a thing to an individual whom u can call a friend of many years. It is simply childish and uncalled for.I note that you have failed to apologise to XY for this even though he has done so. Perhaps an apology is in order here.
Furthermore, I would like to draw your attention to your sensational headline "Check this out- Turns out that VIRGIN BIRTH is not so MIRACULOUS afterall". Now isnt that a Tabloid-worthy headline. Perhaps you might be interested in working for New Idea or Women's Day? I fail to see how that heading would be on entirely free of religious overtones. I'm honestly surprised as to why no one has commented on it earlier. Put this into context. Your discussion on religion. Your comment on a non-MIRACULOUS VIRGIN BIRTH. Honestly, is is not painfully obvious? Though no one here has said anything, I must say that I feel offended as a fellow follower of Christ. Just what purpose did your headline serve? The miracle of Christ's virgin-birth is not mentioned anywhere in the article so why sensationalise it as such? The last time I checked, humans arent sharks.
For the sake of consistency and objectivity, I would suggest that you keep your emotions in check. Keep to your own advice and set yourself away from the discussion. Make clear your context and refrain from making provoking statements or personal attacks. If not, dont blame anyone for questioning the true agenda for your discussion on religion.
FOr the sake of discussion, I would just like to say that it'll be foreseeably easier for society to trult embrace the concept of homosexuality before we can even embark upon any discussion of incest.
To XY:
Perhaps you should be more clear in what you say and dont assume people will know what you are thinking, that way you can easily avoid misunderstanding. Its easy enough for someone to misunderstand you, as evidenced by this discussion. So, for the sake of keeping peace and harmony and progress for this blog :P , please assume we're all dimwits and state everything with all possible clarity :)
Ok, hope I havent offended anyone with this post. If I have, I'm sorry. Back to the discussion!
jeff! you are alive! tk and I were talking about you during supper today. are you back in singapore yet?
anyway, i don't really want to open the discussion on religion anymore, because it makes me seem a lot more militant on religion and it pisses a lot of people. I only attack ideas and i reserve the right to make fun of them. I am not a lawyer, but i understand a personal attack as an attack on the character of the person. I don't get pissed off if peope tell me that the belief in reason and in agnosticism is stupid. I know it sounds incredulous, but i don't really feel very strongly on religion. it is your personal belief, i am an agnostic, and i will convert to christianity if i see angels flying outside my window. i just attended my brother's catholic wedding and have his rings blessed! Haha, it is at the Holy Family at Katong, and maybe you go there too!
BBC's heading was that "captive shark has virgin birth." maybe, it has a religious tone too and should get sued by you :)
anyway, you are right that i am not consistent in my last comment, cause i finally got pissed off with XY harping about my personal life in the discussion and when i thought he was linking me to incest. I have never linked his personal life and his adventures in John Hopkins, Singapore, HK and Cambridge to any discussion. So i figured out i need to show him i am pissed and that he should stop it.
apparently, people are very upset about the religion and intelligence link. I certainly don't think XY is stupid or anyone in particular, so sorry about that. But, as TK and i were talking over supper, his conversion to Christianity is rather suprising. And well, let just say that i feel that his conduct during the discussion wasn't his finest hour. But, of course, we have since made our peace and i think a stupid discussion over religion is not going to affect our friendship in any way. I think we all remember the story book "To Kill a Mocking Bird", and i quote, "there are some kind of men who are so busy worrying about the next life, that they never learned to live in this one." I am not one of them, and i doubt XY and others on this class blog are too.
Please just click on the http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
read the studies and debunk it. i am not in the mood to be drawn into another pointless quarrel. If you think that it makes no sense and goes against your own personal experience, so be it.
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