In reply to GCS on Lot and incest. - read only if u're interested. its long

Disclaimer: all these are but my own views and interpretation. No one else’s. And sorry to flood the blog… Whoever’s not interested, please do not read! ha. I know people are getting tired of these discussions. but ha it is just a discussion, no malice intended so whoever’s reading, don’t be offended in any way!

I am typing this from my room in Uganda. Did not have time to read through all the comments from the internet cafe, so am not sure of the details you all have been discussing. Not sure if Long Green Ears have explained it already to you (I saw this long reply) but this is just my humble input (as you’ve requested), I hope it does help you understand. And don’t worry GCS, I perfectly understand where you’re coming from, so just feel free to express yourself. I won’t be offended ha and yes, I do have less IQ points than XY and you to start with. So I’d be explaining in plain simple language, to the best of my ability. And I might take some time to reply to any of your comments k, cos internet is a scarcity here.

Genesis 19 talks about Lot and his daughters. We must note that the bible is not only a book of law, miracles, prophecy, it is also about history. There are positive and negative examples in this book to learn from. Not all are perfect examples. And this is why we can identify with and learn from these examples in the bible. They are all humans like us. The bible records the sins which humans committed and how God disciplined or will discipline us.

Lot, is one of the negative examples which we see. First, let us look at how he got himself to Zoar, where his daughters committed incest with him. Note that Lot and Abraham were together initially, they were all being blessed by the Lord, such that in Genesis 13, their property etc became too much for them to be living together. So they had to separate. Abraham let Lot choose where he wanted to settle in, and Lot, seeing the lush plains near the cities of Sodom and Gonorrah (before they were destroyed), chose to move there and let Abraham move to Manre, an area which seemingly is less habitable. He chose to live comfortably for himself, whereas Abraham lived where Lot did not choose.

Shall skip details about how he was kidnapped by the kings attacking Sodom etc. But later, we know that his choice wasn’t a good one, for we know that Sodom and Gonorrah, turned sinful as they became more prosperous and not heeding God’s laws. So much so that in Genesis 19 we know that the city of Sodom (hmmm very much like some societies nowadays..) indulged in sexual immorality. God had the intention to have judgment mete upon Sodom (Genesis 18) and He had promised Abraham to not destroy the city if He could find ten righteous men. Yet, there was not even 10. So God sent 2 angels in the form of 2 foreign men to carry out His judgment and save Lot. The reason for saving Lot is mentioned in Genesis 19:29 “So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.” All because Lot was Abraham’s relative. Was it because Lot was righteous? Well it could be, but it is not mentioned.

So when the 2 angels came, Lot did not know they were angels. Lot thought they were foreigners visiting so invited them to spend the night in his home, and was very hospitable towards them. Yet, the men from the rest of Sodom, both young and old surrounded his house and wanted to have sex with the 2 foreign men. You can see that Sodom indulged in sexual immorality, such that they could openly demand to have intercourse with the same gender. Lot tried to protect the 2 men from these people, so he pleaded them not to harm the 2 men, but offered his 2 virgin daughters instead. This is the crux. Lot may have seemed “self sacrificial” to offer his daughters, but we know that having lived in this city, surrounded by everyone who is sexually immoral for such a long time, the hearts of Lot and the rest of his family have been coloured / influenced by them. So although Lot opposes some of the evil of Sodom, he and his family could have been drawn into its allure. This is evident in the fact that he offers his daughters to them.

As the head of the family, he should protect his daughters, but there he is, offering his daughters. Having grown up in such a family, it is no wonder that his daughters would think that incest is perfectly alright and thought they should carry on the family line after their mother has passed away.

Lot and his family may have kept pure in their actions, not partaking in the sins of the rest of the city, but clearly, having lived with the rest of the people has changed their way of thinking, as evident by his statement to them, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” Firstly, he calls them friends, that is he tries to identify with them. So yes, his thinking might have been influenced by them. Next, he does not partake in their sin, for he says “don’t do this wicked thing”. His family has kept pure in their actions till now, such that his daughters are still virgins. Yet in his desperation to save the 2 men (he feels responsible towards them) he is ready to break his purity in action and yield to these immoral acts, seen from the fact that he offers his daughters. So definitely, his way of thinking has changed from the time he left Abraham. If Lot, being the father, has a change in his way of thinking, how much more will his daughters be influenced?

The Chinese saying Jing Zhu Zhe Chi, Jing Mo Zhe Hei describes exactly what has happened to Lot. He was living alone in this city, as an alien. So to survive, even though he does not agree to what they are doing, he has to keep one eye closed. This is evident by the men’s reply to his statement, “Get out of our way. This fellow came here as an alien and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” And they kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.” Inevitably, by not standing up against their actions, he has condoned them.

So later, his daughters made him drink wine and committed incest with him without his knowledge, in a bid to carry on the family line. The daughters thought it was the right thing to do. So we see now the problem is the wrong education and upbringing of his daughters. And throughout the bible, there has been NO MENTION that God agrees with what Lot and his daughters have done. Yet, we know that God has mentioned in Exodus that we are not to commit incest, loud and clear. So evidently, what Lot has done is wrong. This part of the story is recorded such that we can learn from it and see the fact as humans, we can yield to temptation easily and when it happens, the consequences will be dire.

And this story also illustrates to us that if we read the bible not as a whole but only selected parts, we can easily misunderstand what it says.

(this is just point of information, plays no part in our discussion) And interesting note is that the 2 family lines produced by his daughters will be traditional enemies of Abraham’s family, the Jews. During one of the sermons I’ve heard, the preacher said that satan works by trying to sabotage God’s efforts in bringing Jesus to save the world. From the very beginning, during Adam’s time, He has already in mind to bring Jesus to save the world. God tries to raise a family through (analogy “royal family”) through which Jesus is to be born. So in Adam’s family, Cain was led by jealousy and killed Abel. So that left us with no “pure” son to carry on the line. Yet, God countered with creating Seth. Genesis 4:25 “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” So all throughout the bible, members of the family are being drawn away from the “royal family”, and Lot’s family happens to be one example of this.

Hope this has helped you further understand. :P